Electrical issues following wash - need help solving mystery

G

Gandalf

New Member
Hello all, thanks for reading. L400 S2 ('98) V6 has been nearly flawless for 5 years. So here is the progression.
Washed the van, using pressure washer (just externally, not in the engine bay lol).
Van runs/starts fine.
Two days later, it is dead in the morning. So something out of the blue is draining it, slowly, constantly.
Recharged battery. Starts/runs normally but now I started paying attention.
Dead again next morning. Replaced with fresh battery.
Starts and runs fine, but battery light is now on. Voltage on voltage meter seems to wander, going higher than normal, up to 15-16 volts.
Starts/runs fine for several days, then dead again in the morning.
Recharge new battery, starts and runs fine but now voltage is low, 11 volts and decreasing. Trickle charge battery again overnight.
Next day, starts weird (like it is fighting something), catches and seems to run fine, I get a half a block away from home and it begins to run rough, then quits altogether.
Cranks over, but varies greatly between cranking effortlessly and cranking very slowly... (if I were to guess, it is getting weird resistance from incorrrect firing order or something like that). Plenty of fuel in the tank, before you ask :) . Does not catch. Does not seem to have proper electrical to ignition, etc or perhaps to fuel.
Coasted/pulled it home with donor LS engine Silverado truck.
Main battery ground and battery leads checked/cleaned, and to body. No difference. Visual inspection of visible connector plugs, engine bay fuses.

My overall guesses are:
- that somehow water got in somewhere it shouldn't, and it has affected the alternator's ability to charge/power things
- alternator got wet, began to fail, created odd draining and is now creating electrical havoc
- water got into connections, plugs or grounds elsewhere, and helped existing corrosion interfere (but things have been dry for days and days now)
- water got into relays? water may have sprayed past the hood at the corners, by the fusebox on the right (driver) side, or by the left (battery) area
- the ecu has lost it's mind

Any ideas?
 
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Sounds to me like the alternator/voltage regulator is probably failed/faulty and it's also killing the battery.
 
Agree, sounds alternator or charging system wiring based on info… do I recall your user name from mr2oc?
 
Based on the symptoms I would agree with the above! Check your belts and alternator pulley, if it sounded/felt like it was "fighting something" it can be a bad alternator bearing. You'd be shocked what a bad alternator can do, I've seen them look like a locked motor until you pull the belt off and suddenly the car fires right up because the bearing is seized.
 
B.Delica said:
Based on the symptoms I would agree with the above! Check your belts and alternator pulley, if it sounded/felt like it was "fighting something" it can be a bad alternator bearing. You'd be shocked what a bad alternator can do, I've seen them look like a locked motor until you pull the belt off and suddenly the car fires right up because the bearing is seized.
Click to expand...
Ok, so here is the latest update.
- belts looked perfect
- alt spins easily and quietly
- alt was replaced with a fresh rebuilt yesterday
Nothing changed, same symptoms.
I suspected that the alt may have failed, and I have heard that when the rectifier goes and sends AC into the system, it can wreak havoc with the tranny being a victim as well... I in fact did have clunkier shifting issues the last time I drove it (it has seen very little actual driving since these issues started). This alt failure may have created other issues.
- the ecu looks and smells just fine, no suspicious disoloration, or blown traces that I can see (this "new" OBD2 stuff is so much smaller grrr), caps look fine.
- so now I am going after possible relays, if one of them is failed?
- for the moment I am assuming that the starter system and fuel system are fine, since they won't create the strange cranking combined with zero catching.
I am suspecting that, whatever has happened, the firing order is totally out of wack, which explains the inconsistent cranking speeds and the interior lights really dim when the engine reaches its "difficult" moments. And no catching.
I am trying to track down where ignition-related relays and components/modules blah-blah might be.
Thanks for reading guys!
 
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DustAngel said:
tom1977 with a mk1.5 build. Glad to see you’re into these delica vans! Have you checked for voltage drops on the main circuits?
Click to expand...
Hey! of course, I've grabbed parts from you as well...
I havent checked for voltage drop,
My latest update is I threw my timing light on to the spark plug wires, and got no spark. Zero. On any of them. I confess I have not had to wrap my head around any Delica electronics as of yet, but I should be able to pick up something off them :D

I do not have a 1998 6G72 electrical/ignition portion of a manual or diagrams... if anyone does, please link me!

Incidentally, I noticed something mildly curious (although I suspect entirely inconsequential because it has been running for 5 years like this since I bought it)... I wanted to clip onto spark plug #1 to look at timing, and I found that the spark plug wires for each of the three pairs was reversed, as indicated by the comparing the numbers stamped on the metal edge below each pair, but the numbers on each wire indicate the opposite (254163 vs 521436 wires)... for example, wires 2 and 5 are reversed:
 

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I would imagine that the coils are correct being that they “batch fire” as long as numbers are correct to coils as I see they are. Is it possible you have a bad ignition switch or a problem on the primary wiring for the engine?
 
According to the diagram, there is an "ignition power transistor" just prior to the coil pack.
 
gandalf et al
I had a similar problem years ago in my S2 V6. The battery connection at the starter had corroded and only needed removal and filing the connection. Similar symptoms and simple solution.

Remember the KISS problem. Trace out the positive connection from the battery to the starter.

That was 4-5 years ago and no repeat problems since then. At the time I thought it amazing there could be corrosion at that connector.

Good luck with your V6. They're lovely beasts
Wayne
 
sk66 said:
According to the diagram, there is an "ignition power transistor" just prior to the coil pack.
Click to expand...
Yes,
I found it and tested both it (with a 1.5v battery) and the harnesses going to it, and all tested fine.
The coils all read the same primary resistances .8ohm (within range according the the 1998 Montero manual http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/old/pajero/montero_sm_1998_vol1_engine-trans-fuel.pdf ). And secondary resistances were all the same at around 12 - 13 Kohm (I have a spare set of coils and they all tested the same too).

So this is something I have noticed... I had mentioned laboured and inconsistent cranking (with noticeable flickering of door dome light). Well, if the ignition power transistor is disconnected, or, if the crankshaft position pigtail is disconnected, cranking sounds normal in both instances, no domelight flickering. So, this tells me it is not a mechanical difficulty causing the labouring when turning the engine over.
Hmmm I am still missing something. I just got paranoid and am going to make sure my timing light (which I am using to detect plug wire signals) is actually working, on another vehicle... brb.
 
thelazygreenfox said:
gandalf et al
I had a similar problem years ago in my S2 V6. The battery connection at the starter had corroded and only needed removal and filing the connection. Similar symptoms and simple solution.

Remember the KISS problem. Trace out the positive connection from the battery to the starter.

That was 4-5 years ago and no repeat problems since then. At the time I thought it amazing there could be corrosion at that connector.

Good luck with your V6. They're lovely beasts
Wayne
Click to expand...
I will do that next. Some oil down there. Thank you. Perhaps the inefficient power draw is robbing ignition?
 
So my timing light is definitely working just fine, as tested on an LS.
But I am getting very inconsistent firing pattern on the Delica. two flashes and then a gap, two flashes and then a gap... Shouldn't it just be an even steady pattern? when I went to point it at the main pulley to see if I could see timing, cranked and got no spark again. nothing. I have not had a chance to see timing yet. Smell fuel, so its getting that.
Tested the harness for both the cam and crank sensor, all as it should be. I don't know how to directly test the sensors themselves (yet... but I'm looking), I tried and got no continuity between any of the pins in either sensor, which I believe to be a good thing.

If I didn't mention it before, I get no CEL, it goes out after several seconds of IGN in the ON position. So not sure if that exonerates the Crank Position Sensor since I believe a faulty one would have tripped an engine code... (*edit* I have read that a CEL for a failed crank position sensor often does not come on even when the sensor has failed :/ ).
 
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SOLVED... ! sorta. (*edit: it turned out to be temporary :mad:)
I picked up where I left off last night, took apart the starter connections, they had zero corrosion to the naked eye, but there was oil present on and around the starter/solenoid. I sanded connections, alcoholled everything, reassembled. Made no difference to catching, and got ZERO on my timing light (but wait for my timing light update note on this at the end). It seemed to have a bit more consistency in cranking, less struggle, so time well spent regardless.

Found a test for the crank position sensor, and prepared to follow it.

How To Test The Crank Sensor (1997-2004 3.0L Montero)

Mitsubishi 3.0L Index of Articles
easyautodiagnostics.com easyautodiagnostics.com

Fiddling with the crank position sensor plug for about the tenth time in several days, making sure I had the right (blue) wire I was going to probe for signal.
Crank-Cam-Sensors.jpg

Also, I fiddled with what I believe is a ground wire that comes from the Ignition Power Transistor (circled reddish plug) that goes to a single wire plug (also circled). *EDIT I now believe this to be the main coil voltage supply, it connects to the lower rear terminal on each of the three coilpacks.
Ign-Power-Trans-ground.jpg
I unplugged and replugged each of them several times in the process.

Thought I'd crank her again. It caught.
I immediately tried to reproduce the problem. Unplugging, or a bad connection at either of those plugs, instantly cuts all ignition.
I just don't definitively know where exactly the connection issue was. Messed with the wiring alone (while engine running) for 20 minutes, and could not recreate the problem. I do not believe it was any wire, and since I had already successfully tested all of these, it has to be a bit of corrosion right inside either plug, that just needed some friction.

Engine will run without the cam sensor plugged in, but throws an engine light.

Also, a follow-up to my timing light, for whatever reason, my timing light has a lot of trouble picking up these plug wires, it needs to be in a certain position on them, so no wonder I could never see consistent spark previously. Coils were putting out like nuts though, I should have tried to unplug them at the coils previously, while cranking, to see, as opposed to using my timing light.|

Alternator now registering a nice steady 14v on the dash gauge, so I do believe that was the first main issue. But, since it didn't appear to fry anything else, I have to chalk it up to several simultaneous issues overall, some of which could have been exacerbated by the washing.

So I wish I had a bit more clarity for you all. But, thank you for your help!
This baby is due for some TLC, like a "spark plug and wires day" lol, since it appears to be the most difficult spark plug job I've ever had to do.
At some point, this engine needs to come out for a rear seal of some type... aforementioned oil leak... and it would be a good excuse to slap on that supercharger that's been waiting on the shelf, glowering at me.
Cheers!
-Martin

SIGH (*edit: see below)
 
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Looks to me you figured out, great job! Maybe use some deoxit electronics cleaner in those areas to keep clean and dry.
 
Growlerbearnz has a manual listed in one of his posts also delica.ca has a manual for the L400 that could be helpful. I'll try to find it and send to you.

Do you know about the failsafe mode on the ignition modules. They're listed in the manual and alter the ecu settings to maintain safe driving conditions when one of the sensors fails. It's on page (MPI troubleshooting) 13A-11.

If the oil leak you mention is on the right hand side rear cam shaft you'll need drop the engine (6") to repair it. All the V6s need that repaired at least once. The mitsu o ring flattens and leaks. I packed mine with hi temp sealant the 2nd time it leaked. So far so good. Just 130000 kms.
The oil leak repair is not bad except you need remove orings of the cooling system and a fragile aluminum flange that is prone to cracking on reassembly.

If you're changing the spark plug leads make sure you get the long set. Some come too short. Don't over torque the plug when you reinstall them, the aluminum heads can strip easy.

Articles I've read on the mitsubishi line of V6s say ours is not a good engine to boost HP in. Personally I'd rather change to adirect injection type head to get a HP boost. It's more efficient and give a boost in fuel mileage.
 
thelazygreenfox said:
Growlerbearnz has a manual listed in one of his posts also delica.ca has a manual for the L400 that could be helpful. I'll try to find it and send to you.

Do you know about the failsafe mode on the ignition modules. They're listed in the manual and alter the ecu settings to maintain safe driving conditions when one of the sensors fails. It's on page (MPI troubleshooting) 13A-11.

If the oil leak you mention is on the right hand side rear cam shaft you'll need drop the engine (6") to repair it. All the V6s need that repaired at least once. The mitsu o ring flattens and leaks. I packed mine with hi temp sealant the 2nd time it leaked. So far so good. Just 130000 kms.
The oil leak repair is not bad except you need remove orings of the cooling system and a fragile aluminum flange that is prone to cracking on reassembly.

If you're changing the spark plug leads make sure you get the long set. Some come too short. Don't over torque the plug when you reinstall them, the aluminum heads can strip easy.

Articles I've read on the mitsubishi line of V6s say ours is not a good engine to boost HP in. Personally I'd rather change to adirect injection type head to get a HP boost. It's more efficient and give a boost in fuel mileage.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reply, and the info.
I would love the actual Delica v6 6G72 manual (series 2)... I have looked everywhere, tried to buy them when advertized as including the v6 6G72 engine, and they have all been ripoffs (just what is commonly available in the diesel engines etc). I can piece together some things (like the Magna, but it has a distributor), and the Montero (but a different ecu, different ecu plugs and pinouts)... so far no way to trace all of the ecu harness wiring to verify continuity.
Interesting on the boosting info... what about the stealth twin turbo? :) Not thinking anything crazy, just another 50-70 whp (6psi etc).
 
UPDATE... grrrrr.
The van ran perfectly for a couple of days, then suddenly would not start again, exactly as before, was running, I turned it off for a few minutes, then it would not catch the next time I tried to start, with the same inconsistent cranking. Aside from the fact that the alternator is working now, it is back to square one.
Here is what I have tried since then:
1) Swapped out the power transistor unit (some people like at Coombs Country Auto call it the power module) feeding the coils, both my original and the new transistor units test identically, both do put out spark at the coils, the lack of starting behavior is unchanged. I figured that perhaps my original was putting out spark but not in a correct manner... but nope.
2) Tested the harness leads between the ecu/ecm that feed the power transistor unit (pins 11, 12, 13. I was able to figure them out as the signals for the three coilpacks) and they check out, no discontinuity or short to ground etc.
3) Took out the starter, suspecting that if it were on the way out, it could be sucking so much power draw that the ignition system doesn't like it (remember that my timing light has difficulty picking up spark from ANY of the spark plug wires). It was terribly dirty inside, oil and caked dust. I cleaned it, wiping with some alcohol on a cloth, reassembled, re-installed. Zero difference. Inconsistent cranking, interior lights dimming when cranking especially when it reaches its difficult moments. I have read that once oil gets in there, it can ruin the starter no matter how clean you get it.
4) Boosted with additional battery, both charged... zero difference.
5) Wanted to test perhaps if the starter was starved for juice by a bad main ground cable (bolted to the rearmost starter bolt) or invisibly corroded main power cable, or a poor feed from the solenoid to the starter... so I ran a separate additional external power cable directly to the starter terminal (not the solenoid terminal), and a separate additional ground cable to the rear starter bolt. Then I had my wife crank the engine over, and I immediately connected the additional new wires to another separate battery (that's three batteries hooked up now). Cranked over for only about 5 secs, very slowly, and died, not cranking over any more, just a click and a faint whining.

Ok, so I have to concede that the starter is irrevocably gunk-damaged and perhaps beyond the help of any cleaning. Sent it out for a rebuild.
What I don't understand is, even a low battery that has barely enough juice to crank an engine over can still start that engine, but in this case, the ignition system seems to take a bath even though the starter was cranking the engine over (if inconsistently). Perhaps its just the manner in which the starter is drawing amperage, starving the ignition.

Since swapping the alternator, the battery light went away, and I have not gotten any engine codes (except briefly when unplugging the cam sensor)... just the steady quick .5sec blinks on the engine light and N shifter light.

I am, for now, eliminating the following possible causes:
- ecu/ecm, because it would not explain the hard inconsistent cranking, the signals are present at the power transistor unit, not getting any backfiring or misfiring or the engine fighting itself due to firing order issues etc., and no codes
- the fuel system, because again it doesn't explain the cranking problem.
- timing belt, because the problem flared up, corrected itself 100%, then re-occurred, and I was able to see about 15 deg BTDC on my timing light after fiddling with it during the two days of it running again.

Can someone make the case that a failed crank position sensor (which isn't throwing a code), or a failing fuel delivery system, can create partial/poor/incomplete combustion which makes it much harder for the starter to turn over?

I am also considering whether there is something in the tranny that can make life extremely difficult for the starter... like a failing torque converter clutch solenoid... but wouldn't that only affect things in gear? or can it lock on in P or N too?
 
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