Steaming pile of...

moroza

moroza

Active Member
...rust, is how I'd describe this particular specimen of a P25W-SNPT, a 1991 Delica Exceed L300 4wd manual turbodiesel SWB low-roof. I'm a semi-retired mechanic who did a job/favor for a friend: finding one, traveling out to it, reporting that it's an ill-maintained rustbucket and advising in no uncertain terms that he not buy it... and driving it back when he decided to buy it anyway. Now it's my problem, on his dime. So it goes.

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It has a long list of issues but actually drives pretty well. 338k km, and I believe the transmission and possibly the engine are not original. We won't run an automatic no way no how, but the gearing with the manual is way too short. An auto one I saw spun ~2500 at ~105kph; this one is screaming at ~3100 at the same speed and feels like it wants another gear. The chassis, while not exactly a BMW on the highway, feels stable enough at 110-120, but the gearing sells it short and discourages going over 90. In spite of which, the first two tanks were 9.0 and 8.7 L/100km (26.4 and 27.2mpg), mostly 90kph cruising.

First question: what have people's experiences been, installing taller final drives? Any six-speed options? Or a fifth gear somewhere around .75? Theoretically, to match the autos I'd run a 3.80. A 4D55-powered Mighty Max I previously owned, with the same trans ratios, felt quite reasonable with a 4.10 and repeatedly did 7.4L/100km (32mpg) at 110kph (65mph) and ~8.8-9 (26-27mpg) overall - fantastic for a 4x4 truck IMO. The Deli is significantly heavier (~3900lb vs ~3000) but on the highway that matters less than aero, which is similar(ly bad). I'm thinking of 4.10, 4.22, or 4.30. I understand some of these had a 7.5" front diff and some had 8"; I've yet to investigate the K-code.

Among the problems are a total lack of maintenance except oil changes, and even those I suspect were botched (one receipt I found suggested gasoline engine oil was used). With fingers crossed and four-leaf clovers shoved in my ears, it made the ~1300km drive home without incident, but the timing belts need changed immediately.

Second question: does the 4D56 use the same timing belt parts as a 4D55? The latter was sold in the US, and some sources say the belts are the same, while others (including the Mitsubishi EPC) imply they're different.

Two general observations:
1. Importation was very easy. $60, one piece of paper, and half an hour. I was originally worried they'd demand harder evidence of a build date (there are none on the vehicle itself) but I don't think they inspected it at all and just went by what the Canadian registration said.

2. This thing is better-designed and better-made than previous Mitsubishi products had led me to expect. While I still consider late 80's to mid-90's Toyota to be #1 for overall build quality and general we-thought-this-sh*t-through-ness, this Delica appears to be not far behind. The engineering and design effort put into it shows. I've only briefly driven a contemporary HiAce and never a Lite or TownAce, so the only direct competitor I can compare to is the T3 Vanagon, which appears to do nothing better and many things significantly worse than the L300.
 
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As far as I know the only option for a lower ratio diff while keeping the original front and rear axles is a 4.625 (front ring gear/pinion set MB527750, rear ring/pinion set MB527150) which makes almost no difference with a manual gearbox: the existing 4.875 diffs give you 3000rpm at 100kph, a 4.625 would reduce that to 2850rpm. Woo. Cheaper to fit 31" tires to bring it down to 2800rpm.
L300s all had 7.5" front diffs, the 8" fronts are in certain Pajero/Montero/Shoguns from the '80s and early '90s. Pajeros came with low- or high-pinion front diffs, the low-pinion 8" diffs are *super* rare.

Your best option would be an axle swap from something that has live rear and independant front with the front driveshaft on the left (which is unusual). Hyundai Terracans and some Kia Sorrentos have a 4.222 and are descended from the Mitsubishi drivetrain, so might swap over.

Fitting a 6-speed gearbox might be easier, except it has to be RWD cable shift, and quite short (you've noticed how short the rear driveshaft is already). Hyundai H1/Starex 6-speed gearbox looks promising and it's intended to fit a 4D56, but I've not ben brave enough to buy one yet. I expect the mainshaft would need to be changed, maybe a custom mainshaft made, and an adapter for the transfer case.

I'm not sure about the 4D55 timing belts, but 4D56 belts changed around 1993. I've had a lot of luck looking up the official Mitsubishi part number and throwing that into Google to find equivalent parts. It's more reliable than asking at the local parts shop, they usually have no clue.
 
I'll start a new thread for the nitty-gritty of a diff swap, but the option I'd be first pursuing is the diffs off an early 80's Mighty Max, which are on the correct side, 7.5" front and 8" rear, and 4.10 IIRC (might be 3.90). I have the skills and time to swap in a random rear axle from a Toyota or something, but prefer to stick with Mitsubishi stock fitment for the front. Besides the Mighty Max, two IFS diffs I can think of on the correct side are 95-04 Toyota Tacoma/4Runner and 86-89 Toyota Van (elsewhere known as the [various]Ace and available in more years).

Would the 4.22 from a petrol Delica not fit?

I did extensive parts cross-referencing and that's where my confusion lies: different sources say different things. At this point it's coming down to all aftermarket saying they're the same (4D55 and 1991 4D56) but the EPC implying they're different: 83 MM timing belt is MD099707, while my 91 Deli is MD134377 or MD197153.
 
Man, hats off to you for embarking on such a modification. I'm sure you know what you are getting in to and have already decided it's feasible. Your level of skill and daring surpasses most on this forum so dont be surprised if you dont get a ton of feedback. Most, like me, will just sit back with interest and see if you can pull this off.

My question for you is "why?" Let's say you can pull this off and get gearing in there that will, on paper, allow for cruising comfy at higher speeds. You still have an anemic little engine that struggles to push you up even the slightest of grades. When I'm chugging away at 80 KPH being passed by everyone, the last thing I think is "If only I had taller gearing." If I had your level of ambition, time, and talent I'd be fitting bigger tires and an engine that can turn them.

But, to each their own. Best of luck to you and please keep us posted with your progress and photos. This will be very cool to see unfold!
 
Because 3100 revs per minute are unnecessary noise, torque, engine wear, and fuel consumption, considering that the same engine in the same van with greater transmission losses does fine at 2500 instead. I don't consider this engine anemic for the application (that said, it's not loaded down with tons of camping equipment like some here). Mine will climb a meaningful grade at 85kph in fifth; I don't think I once downshifted to 4th except when entering a town. It feels like it wants another gear.

I did something similar on a BMW. I ignored warnings of the car becoming slow, and did not regret it.
 
moroa said:
Would the 4.22 from a petrol Delica not fit?
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It would fit in the rear axle, but you would then have to find a matching 4.22 for the front.

I think the Mighty Max had a 7.25" front diff (same as a '79-'86 L300) but I've not really looked into that one, not many old L200s left around here.
 
FSM page 27-4 states that P05V, P15V, and P05W came with a "small type" 4.222, while the P04W came with "large type" 4.222. Is the small type the 7.5 or 7.25 that would fit a front diff? I'll sit down sometime and painstakingly cross-reference bearings, carriers, and other parts, but if you know the answer offhand...

For that matter, the EPC is decent at telling me what part fits a given van, but I've yet to find a good crossreference database that can tell me what vehicles take a given part. Is there one?

I'm much amused by your sig, by the way. Reminds me of another nugget of wisdom: "If it ain't broke, I'll fix it 'til it is!"
 
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For Mitsubishi part number cross reference I use partsfan.com. You can search without a login, but they sometimes kick you off if you do to many queries too quickly. Making a login is quick and easy.

I think Small and Large types refer to the differential cage/ring gear carrier, as far as I know they all use the same ring and pinion sizes, but I've not opened up many 2WD rear axles.
 
Oh hai.

The restoration took 5 months of intermittent work, a total of $1521 in parts and materials, 132 billable hours, and the result is a rusty but mechanically solid vehicle that the owner's been happily using ever since, and other than a couple of continued minor oil leaks (rear main, oilpan gasket), has needed nothing. The project is complete enough to be usable, albeit with improvements remaining (fuel gauge, fuel tank, rear carpet, transfer case input seal, probably engine rear main seal and oilpan gasket, skid plate, correct gear oil).

The functional restoration included...
* Both timing belts and all rotating engine seals except the rear main. Also valvecover gasket and valve adjustment. I learned that a Delica, a mid-engined 4WD van, is easier to work on than most 2WD front-engined cars. My initial impression of design quality is reinforced - the WWTT Index (WTF Were They Thinking) is extremely low, barely 2%; the people who designed these vehicles knew what they were doing, cared about what they were doing, had the resources to do it right, and did a great job.
* Replaced pretty much the entire brake system, including fabricating all new hard pipes everywhere except above the floor. New calipers, wheel cylinders, pads, master cylinder. Unfroze the rear shoe adjusters and got the handbrake to work correctly. Reused the rear shoes as they'd been adjusted such that they weren't touching at all, so had no wear (they're also unique to this vehicle and not cheap). I learned that cheap brake flare tools are a waste of time and money.
* Replaced all fuel lines except the hard injector pipes. Used rubber hose meeting SAE J30R9 for B100 capability. I learned that fuel filler hose rated for B100 is extremely hard to find, and the product I did find (Contitech Versafuel 43025) is was a transfer hose so stiff as to be nearly unusable.
* Attempted to restore the fuel tank, but it turned into Swiss cheese when sandblasted. The only tank remaining was the smaller of the two automatic tanks that I bought as spares while on the acquisition trip, which was sandblasted, survived, and covered in truck bedliner. I had to make a new sending unit as the old one rusted to death. Lacking a fuel gauge, it once ran out of its roughly 35-liter (~9-gallon) fuel capacity, at a range of about 380km (240 miles), and didn't need the injectors bled. I learned that fluid specifications are disappointingly approximate, and I still don't know the true fuel capacity of any Delica.
* Bypassed rusty heater pipes with new heater hose, including two aluminum Y-junctions. Replaced the thermostat with a 76C one as specified in the factory service manual.
* Replaced every single last fluid: engine oil (Shell Rotella T4 15W40), coolant (Prestone Fleet Charge with distilled water), transmission and transfer case oils (StaLube 85W90 GL4), brake fluid (regular ol' DOT3), front diff oil (Valvoline 80W90 GL5), rear diff oil (genuine Mitsubishi LSD oil ), washer fluid (was empty, perhaps because the location is unusual), and fuel. Also replaced the thermostat and one oil-leak-contaminated radiator hose (had to come from Japan). I learned what I've seen before - that anything less than exact factory-specified manual transmission oil often ruins shift quality.
* I learned that Delicas are damn cool, well-made, useful, versatile, easy to live with, and easy to recommend.
* I learned that Delica owners tend to be both nicer and more interesting folks than average vehicle enthusiasts. This forum is one of the better, specifically more community-minded ones I've ever been on (over a dozen by now).
 
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Thanks for the update! Glad it all went ok, they really are easier to work on than you expect eh!

moroza said:
* Replaced all fuel lines except the hard injector pipes.
Click to expand...
Just for future reference for anyone browsing this thread, the injector pipes are carefully designed to be exactly equal lengths, and have precisely the right amount of flexibility. Changing the pipes will change your injection timing.
 
Let me throw a wrench into the spokes of that penny-farthing and point out that it's not quite so simple. Yes, increasing driven wheel size reduces engine RPM for a given road speed and gearing, and for straight-line speed that's all there is to it. However, for acceleration and braking, bigger and heavier wheels come with an increase in moment of inertia that's greater, proportionally, than the increase in diameter. Exact numbers depend in part on the weight distribution within wheels and are best derived empirically. Using approximate numbers... if I reduce final drive gearing by 20%, I gain 20% steady speed (for a given RPM) and lose 20% torque at the wheels, reducing acceleration by 20%. If I increase wheel diameter by 20%, I gain 20% steady speed and lose 20% torque, but the acceleration reduction is more like 35% because there's more to accelerate. Furthermore, heavier wheels increase unsprung weight, degrading ride quality. On the plus side, they gain ground clearance.

Also, nothing I can do with wheels can solve the too-small gap between 4th and 5th. Only a different transmission can fix that.
 
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